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Yes； he said。
Now then； I said； making an offering of the third or last argument to Zeus
the Saviour； let us begin again； and ask； in the first place； whether it is
or is not possible for a person to know that he knows and does not know
what he knows and does not know； and in the second place； whether； if
perfectly possible； such knowledge is of any use。
That is what we have to consider； he said。
And here； Critias； I said； I hope that you will find a way out of a
difficulty into which I have got myself。 Shall I tell you the nature of
the difficulty？
By all means； he replied。
Does not what you have been saying； if true； amount to this： that there
must be a single science which is wholly a science of itself and of other
sciences； and that the same is also the science of the absence of science？
Yes。
But consider how monstrous this proposition is； my friend： in any parallel
case； the impossibility will be transparent to you。
How is that？ and in what cases do you mean？
In such cases as this： Suppose that there is a kind of vision which is not
like ordinary vision； but a vision of itself and of other sorts of vision；
and of the defect of them； which in seeing sees no colour； but only itself
and other sorts of vision： Do you think that there is such a kind of
vision？
Certainly not。
Or is there a kind of hearing which hears no sound at all； but only itself
and other sorts of hearing； or the defects of them？
There is not。
Or take all the senses： can you imagine that there is any sense of itself
and of other senses； but which is incapable of perceiving the objects of
the senses？
I think not。
Could there be any desire which is not the desire of any pleasure； but of
itself； and of all other desires？
Certainly not。
Or can you imagine a wish which wishes for no good； but only for itself and
all other wishes？
I should answer； No。
Or would you say that there is a love which is not the love of beauty； but
of itself and of other loves？
I should not。
Or did you ever know of a fear which fears itself or other fears； but has
no object of fear？
I never did； he said。
Or of an opinion which is an opinion of itself and of other opinions； and
which has no opinion on the subjects of opinion in general？
Certainly not。
But surely we are assuming a science of this kind； which； having no
subject…matter； is a science of itself and of the other sciences？
Yes； that is what is affirmed。
But how strange is this； if it be indeed true： we must not however as yet
absolutely deny the possibility of such a science； let us rather consider
the matter。
You are quite right。
Well then； this science of which we are speaking is a science of something；
and is of a nature to be a science of something？
Yes。
Just as that which is greater is of a nature to be greater than something
else？ （Socrates is intending to show that science differs from the object
of science； as any other relative differs from the object of relation。 But
where there is comparisongreater； less； heavier； lighter； and the likea
relation to self as well as to other things involves an absolute
contradiction； and in other cases； as in the case of the senses； is hardly
conceivable。 The use of the genitive after the comparative in Greek；
（Greek）； creates an unavoidable obscurity in the translation。）
Yes。
Which is less； if the other is conceived to be greater？
To be sure。
And if we could find something which is at once greater than itself； and
greater than other great things； but not greater than those things in
comparison of which the others are greater； then that thing would have the
property of being greater and also less than itself？
That； Socrates； he said； is the inevitable inference。
Or if there be a double which is double of itself and of other doubles；
these will be halves； for the double is relative to the half？
That is true。
And that which is greater than itself will also be less； and that which is
heavier will also be lighter； and that which is older will also be younger：
and the same of other things； that which has a nature relative to self will
retain also the nature of its object： I mean to say； for example； that
hearing is； as we say； of sound or voice。 Is that true？
Yes。
Then if hearing hears itself； it must hear a voice； for there is no other
way of hearing。
Certainly。
And sight also； my excellent friend； if it sees itself must see a colour；
for sight cannot see that which has no colour。
No。
Do you remark； Critias； that in several of the examples which have been
recited the notion of a relation to self is altogether inadmissible； and in
other cases hardly credibleinadmissible； for example； in the case of
magnitudes； numbers； and the like？
Very true。
But in the case of hearing and sight； or in the power of self…motion； and
the power of heat to burn； this relation to self will be regarded as
incredible by some； but perhaps not by others。 And some great man； my
friend； is wanted； who will satisfactorily determine for us； whether there
is nothing which has an inherent property of relation to self； or some
things only and not others； and whether in this class of self…related
things； if there be such a class； that science which is called wisdom or
temperance is included。 I altogether distrust my own power of determining
these matters： I am not certain whether there is such a science of science
at all； and even if there be； I should not acknowledge this to be wisdom or
temperance； until I can also see whether such a science would or would not
do us any good； for I have an impression that temperance is a benefit and a
good。 And therefore； O son of Callaeschrus； as you maintain that
temperance or wisdom is a science of science； and also of the absence of
science； I will request you to show in the first place； as I was saying
before； the possibility； and in the second place； the advantage； of such a
science； and then perhaps you may satisfy me that you are right in your
view of temperance。
Critias heard me say this； and saw that I was in a difficulty； and as one
person when another yawns in his presence catches the infection of yawning
from him； so did he seem to be driven into a difficulty by my difficulty。
But as he had a reputation to maintain； he was ashamed to admit before the
company that he could not answer my challenge or determine the question at
issue； and he made an unintelligible attempt to hide his perplexity。 In
order that the argument might proceed； I said to him； Well then Critias； if
you like； let us assume that there is this science of science； whether the
assumption is right or wrong may hereafter be investigated。 Admitting the
existence of it； will you tell me how such a science enables us to
distinguish what we know or do not know； which； as we were saying； is
self…knowledge or wisdom： so we were saying？
Yes； Socrates； he said； and that I think is certainly true： for he who has
this science or knowledge which knows itself will become like the knowledge
which he has； in the same way that he who has swiftness will be swift； and
he who has beauty will be beautiful； and he who has knowledge will know。
In the same way he who has that knowledge which is self…knowing； will know
himself。
I do not doubt； I said； that a man will know himself； when he possesses
that which has self…knowledge： but what necessity is there that； having
this； he should know what he knows and what he does not know？
Because； Socrates； they are the same。
Very likely； I said； but I remain as stupid as ever； for still I fail to
comprehend how this knowing what you know and do not know is the same as
the knowledge of self。
What do you mean？ he said。
This is what I mean； I replied： I will admit that there is a science of
science；can this do more than determine that of two things one is and the
other is not science or knowledge？
No； just that。
But is knowledge or want of knowledge of health the same